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Talk:Frank Gorshin
I reverted the following info by another archivist: ---- Frank Gorshin was an impressionist, comedian, and actor born April 5, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; who played Commissioner Bele in for which he received an Emmy nomination. He is best remembered for his portrayal of The Riddler on the campy 1960's Batman television series for which he received another Emmy nomination (the only one on the series). He reprised this role in the 1979 TV movie Legends of the Superheroes (with fellow Batman co-stars Adam West and Burt Ward, TOS/DS9 guest William Schallert and guest Mickey Morton) Finally, in 2003, Gorshin reunited with most of the surviving Batman cast members, including TV "Catwoman" Julie Newmar and movie "Catwoman" Lee Meriwether, in the TV special Return to the Batcave: The Misadventures of Adam and Burt. He was known for his masterful portrayal of legendary comedian George Burns in his one-man play "Say Goodnight, Gracie." It would also be one of his final roles in Angels with Angles (2005, with Amy Wieczorek as the late Gracie Allen, Branscombe Richmond, "Star Trek: Voyager" guest actors Miguel Pérez and Henry Darrow, Jeffrey Weissman, the "replacement George McFly" in the Back to the Future sequels, "Dobie Gillis" actor Dwayne Hickman, Batman star Adam West and in their final roles Soupy Sales, and Rodney Dangerfield as "God") Gorshin had a role in the 1957 film The True Story of Jesse James, starring Jeffrey Hunter and featuring Frank Overton and Clegg Hoyt. In 1959, he made an uncredited appearance in the western Warlock, as did Paul Comi. original series co-star DeForest Kelley and guest actor Whit Bissell had larger, credited roles in this film. He appeared in a number of B-movies for American-International Pictures: Hot Rod Girl (1956), Dragstrip Girl (1957), and the drive-in classic Invasion of the Saucer Men (1957). Gorshin's first substantial role was in the A-movie Bells Are Ringing (1960, with Dean Martin, guest actor Roy Jenson, veteran cartoon-voice actor Paul Frees, Jean Stapleton, "Edith" from All in the Family, and Z-grade movie actor Titus Moede of Rat Pfink a Boo Boo & The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies!!? infamy) Moede would appear with Gorshin again that year in the 1920s gangster film Studs Lonigan (with guests Stanley Adams, who would appear 30 years later on DS9 in , 's Kathie Browne and ''Easy Rider'''s Jack Nicholson), Where the Boys Are (1960, with TOS guest Jon Lormer) In 1961 he was in Sail a Crooked Ship (with Guy Raymond), The George Raft Story (with Seamon Glass and Roy Jenson), and also in Tony Curtis' The Great Imposter (with guest actor Willard Sage, Bewitched s Dick Sargent, and Batman co-star Bob Hastings, who played "Commissioner Gordon"'). He was one of Ed Sullivan's guests on the legendary February 9th, 1964 show that featured the American debut of The Beatles. He played regular cast roles on the soap operas The Edge of Night (1981-1982) and General Hospital (1999). and the South Korean Rubeusutori in Habeodeu (Love Story in Harvard, 2004) Gorshin had a role in the 1978 mini-series Greatest Heroes of the Bible. Other Star Trek alumni featured on this series include Ted Cassidy, Jeff Corey, Nehemiah Persoff, John Schuck, and Dean Stockwell. He appeared in the TV movies; Sky Heist (1975, with Arch Whiting, George Wilbur, Al Wyatt, Ed McCready, Stan Barrett, Bill Catching, 's James Daris, 's Steven Marlo, 's Joseph Campanella, and a very young Suzanne Somers), Death Car on the Freeway (1979, with Roger Aaron Brown), Goliath Awaits (1981, with TNG/DS9 guest actor Duncan Regehr and Alex Cord, who starred as "Dylan Hunt" in Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II), A Night on the Town (1983, with Batman co-star Eartha Kitt and ''Red Dwarf'''s "Cat", Hinton Battle), Bob Hope's first TV movie A Masterpiece of Murder (1986, with Clive Revill, Jason Wingreen, 's Louise Sorel, Invasion of the Body Snatchers' Kevin McCarthy and Forbidden Planet actress Anne Francis), and the comedy short Buford's Got a Gun (1995, with guest Dan Gauthier and Family Guy actress Lori Alan). His voice credits include Rudolph's Shiny New Year, as well as replacing Mel Blanc to portray classic cartoon characters like "Foghorn Leghorn", "Daffy Duck", and "Yosemite Sam". He would co-star twice with 's Christopher Plummer in The Gnomes' Great Adventure (1987) and again in 1995 when he played a doctor in charge of an insane asylum in Terry Gilliam's science fiction thriller, Twelve Monkeys (1995)..He played Kirk Douglas at varying stages of his career in The Big Story (1994, which won the BAFTA for Animated Short). His final role, in the animated Firedog is still in production as of 2005. In 1993, Gorshin appeared in the film Amore!, which also starred original series co-star James Doohan. That same year, he appeared in The Meteor Man, featuring Tommy "Tiny" Lister, Jr., Wallace Shawn, and Deborah Lacey. Some of his other film credits include; Disney's That Darn Cat! (1965, with Bride of Frankenstein star Elsa Lanchester, Planet of the Apes star Roddy McDowall, Karl Held, and 's Liam Sullivan), Skidoo (1968, with Peter Lawford, Jackie Gleason, Frankie Avalon, Mickey Rooney, Slim Pickens, Richard Kiel, ''Barbarella'''s John Phillip Law, musician Harry Nilsson, Batman co-stars Cesar Romero, Burgess Meredith, and Groucho Marx as "God"), Beverly Hills Bodysnatchers (1989, with Brooke Bundy, DS9/ENT guest Keone Young, and 's Marjean Holden, Chuck Hicks, Scott Leva, Jeff Pruitt, Robby Robinson, DS9/VOY/ENT guest Michael Canavan, and Patricia Tallman who appeared in TNG/DS9/VOY), Body Double (1992, with DS9 guest Marty Rackham), Midnight (1989, with veteran radio DJ Wolfman Jack, DS9 guest Robert Miano and Tom 'Tiny' Lister Jr., "Klaang" from the ''Enterprise'' pilot ), Hail Caesar (1994, starring and directed by wikipedia:Weird Science|''Weird Science'']]'s Anthony Michael Hall and co-star Robert Downey Jr., Leslie Danon, ''Pulp Fiction''/''Star Wars'' star Samuel L. Jackson), In 1997 he was in the fantasy Twilight of the Ice Nymphs (with "Borg Queen" Alice Krige) and the murder mystery After the Game (with guest Mike Genovese, Star Trek: The Next Generation guest Sam Anderson and guest Richard Lineback who appeared in TNG/DS9/ENT) He was also in Final Rinse (1999, with punk icon Joey Ramone), All Shook Up (with Christinna Chauncey), Luck of the Draw (2000, with Patrick Kilpatrick, Christopher Doyle, Andy Milder, Chris Durand, Erik Cord, Ice-T, ''Reservoir Dogs''/''Kill Bill'''s Michael Madsen and ''Easy Rider'''s Dennis Hopper), and in 2002 he made the comedies Manna from Heaven (with Louise Fletcher and Seymour Cassel) and High Times Potluck (with hippie comedian Tommy Chong and Jason Mewes of "Jay and Silent Bob" fame). Prior to his death, he had recently worked with the legendary Roger Corman in the Black Scorpion TV series (2001, as the villian "Clockwise") and Corman's miniseries The Phantom Eye 1999, with ' Michael John Anderson) Gorshin died May 17, in Burbank, California, following bouts with lung cancer, emphysema and pneumonia (just four days before the first appearance of "The Riddler" (voiced by horror movie icon Robert Englund) in the animated series The Batman, in which Gorshin himself played the role of "Hugo Strange". He was 72 years old. ---- I think this is just way too much info for the purposes of this wiki, at least in my opinion. I am currently going through it to see what can be added. In the meantime, I would appreciate any comments regarding the information above and its reason for removal. Also, to Mike, where did you read that Gorshin was nominated for an Emmy for his Trek appearance? --From Andoria with Love 03:44, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC) This has definitely been well researched, that's for sure. --From Andoria with Love 03:58, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC) :I know it seems a little long. Isn't there a way to rephrase it more economically without losing the facts? I tried to do that here and there, but got preoccupied gathering raw data.--Mike Nobody 06:07, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC) I have already edited the article to include all of Gorshin's major achievements and his major works and those works in which he co-starred with a regular Trek actor or major Trek guest star. The rest of it doesn't really need to be here, especially references to those individuals who were not directly part of Trek, either in performing in it or being referenced in it. I hope the article as it is meets to your liking. --From Andoria with Love 06:20, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC) * "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." You have the right to make it whatever you want Shran without "pleasing" anyone. Relevance supercedes gluttony. That's why we have the ability to link externally. ;) --Alan del Beccio 11:29, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC) :* Very true. I also need to remember that for myself when writing these articles. I mean, did you see how John Glover looked before I slimmed it back down? Woo! --From Andoria with Love 05:14, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) *Digging up the research is plenty of work enough. Getting into a tug-of-war over editing an article I already spent hours/days putting together is not my idea of a fulfilling way to spend the evening, thank you. I think an ideal solution was offered up by Tim Thompson. He had a filmography at the bottom of his actor's page. Shran rewrote it entirely into the bulk of the article, which I thought was overkill. Maybe if we keep some of the information that doesn't have commentary added down at the bottom, we can have our cake and eat it, too. What do you think?--Mike Nobody 06:37, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) :::I made a suggestion at Memory Alpha:Ten Forward for economizing articles like this. Would it fit better if it was formatted like the article i tested my format on, Stacie Foster? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk :Yeah, that looked pretty good.--Mike Nobody 19:43, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) First, to Mike Nobody... I sympathize with you, I really do. I spent nearly three hours researching, for example, information on John Fiedler and was crushed when it was slimmed down to just two paragraphs (and has since been beefed up a bit more, but is still a long way from what it was). However, you must realize that, as the disclaimer says when you are editing an article, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." Also, as Alan stated, "Relevance supercedes gluttony." We do not need to know every single movie or TV show in which an actor co-starred with another Star Trek actor, and we especially don't need to know that someone starred with Comedian Soupy Sales or Incredible Hulk star Lou Ferigno and the like. Things like that just are not relevant to MA. Also, I did not put the entirety of Tim's filmography into that article -- only those movies that are more well-known or contain major Trek actors (regulars and recurring guests). To include every single movie an actor or actress has ever done with any other Star Trek performer is too excessive and, as you can see above, gets way too out-of-hand. I hope you can understand that. And to Mike Bartel... you should read my reply to Mike Nobody above before reading this. While an article that includes every movie and actor has ever done with any other Trek actor is way too much, so, too, is a filmography which lists every such movie. Frank Gorshin already contains all the info that is needed -- all the works he is best known for and all works in which he appeared with major Trek actors. I don't feel anymore than that is needed, and I'm hoping you will agree with me after reading this. I, personally, was guilty of doing pretty much what Mike is doing now, but have been slimming down those articles significantly (with James Cromwell an obvious exception at the moment). I am not trying to turn people against Mike Nobody; I am trying to make him realize that what he wants to do does not benefit an article, and that, as policy states, his submitted work, regardless of the exhaustive research, may be hacked to death if it suits the article. And that's all I can say on this issue. --From Andoria with Love 21:37, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) *It's the article paragraph set up that makes this style bulky, very few people are going to come to MA to read a huge chunk of non-trek actor info. But, the solution is not too toss it out, just to change the set up. I suggest we turn it into lists the way info is kept at brain or emotion. Jaf 21:42, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)Jaf Actually, the thing to do is to throw it out if it does not serve to benefit the page and only adds needless bulk to the article (needless to me, anyway). The article for Frank Gorshin and many others are fine just the way they are, with the information that is relevant. --From Andoria with Love 21:57, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) :These details make reading the article worthwhile and more enjoyable. I have little interest in reading or contributing to a narrow little vision of what an administrator considers relevant. I expect more from resources like this, as someone who uses them. The question of relevancy often seem a little biased to popular regular cast members and sometimes unpredictable arbitrary standards. Maybe my time would be better spent on a blog somewhere. It's not like I spend it vandalizing or something.--Mike Nobody 22:36, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC) Unfortunately, others do not seem to agree with you in regards to what is interesting. Most do not wish to spend time reading an article in which the bulk of the material is "this movie (with him, him, her, him, and her), that movie (with her, her, and him), this other movie (with him from this, her from that, and her from somewhere else)" and so on. A few lines like that is fine, but too much is too much. A listed filmography might be a way to settle this, but the problem lies in the fact that a brief narrative is generally preferred over a long list. Also a problem is the topic of relvancy - unfortunately, relevancy is biased, but there is nothing that can be done about that. I don't believe we need to know about a movie very few people have heard of in which a certain individual co-starred with a one-time guest performer or, especially, a performer who has nothing to do with Trek. This is irrelevant. What is relevant are major works for which the performer in question is known, popular films they have been in, and those films which feature major Trek guest actors. I know, I'm repeating myself, which is probably a good indication that this argument needs to conclude. :P --From Andoria with Love 00:44, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC) A possible compromise Okay, here's what I propose: for information that is not already in the main narrative itself and is not part of an actor's major works, we should have a listed filmography, such as that which Tim Thomason created. In other words, we leave the narrative portions as they are, but add a filmography list (perhaps something called "additional filmography") for those not-so-major works or those films with not-so-major Trek performers. For example, with Frank Gorshin, we already have all of his major films established. All of the other films that were added in a previous edit by Mike Nobody can be re-added as a listed filmography. This way, the info does not over-crowd the article itself, but the information is still present. I will work on Frank Gorshin to show you what I mean, and you can tell me what you think. --From Andoria with Love 06:37, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC) *Like Captain Mike did on Stacie Foster? Jaf 04:55, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)Jaf ::I say that all non-major and non-Trek roles go in the list. If they had a small role in a B-movie with some guy who also had two lines in a Trek episode, it shouldn't be in the narrative portion of the article becuase it bloats it into an unholy, unreadable thicket of links. (If Shatner was in the B-movie, then maybe it can stay.) Otherwise, to the list with ye. No exceptions for stuff that's "already in the main narrative". There's no grandfathering in wikis. If it's here, it's editable. --9er 11:35, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC) :::I've always worked on the fact that you can include information about other films the actor has done, if its related to something else on MA. For example, if, whilst watching Babylon 5, I see a guest actor from TNG (eg:Dwight Schultz), I can easily write that information into that actor's page, because I know Andreas Katsulas stars as G'Kar on B5, and has also appeared as Tomalak in TNG. Its all about building the web, my friends, always think of the web... Zsingaya ''Talk'' 14:23, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC) ::::That's the spirit, lol! Building the Web has been one of the primary reasons I work on the performer's article (that and I just love to do it :)). As for your comment in my talk page... I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean linking the film titles themselves to their respective articles at Wikipedia? If so, I don't know if there should be a limit or not; it sounds reasonable, though, as we don't want the article to get too crowded with outside links. Anyways, thanks for your input! :) --From Andoria with Love 14:59, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC) ::There's building the web on the one hand and readability and concision on the other. Sometimes they conflict. If all minor connections are relegated to a list, where they don't make actor articles massive exercises in name-dropping, then both are satisfied. Maybe it's me and I'm weird, becuase I don't understand the opposition to this. Each time I come across one of these actor articles with paragraph after paragraph of minor roles in minor films with minor co-stars (who just by chance appeared in Trek at some point), my eyes glaze over and I stop reading the thing. I don't think these articles are nearly as fun to read as some apparently have writing them. Perhaps I'm in the minority on this. In any case a list is a better format for this information- it's cleaner and more readable, and for those who don't care, more easily ignored. --9er 18:43, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC) Don't get me wrong, I completely agree. That's why I proposed having major works as part of the article and minor ones in a list. :) --From Andoria with Love 19:03, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC) :As some of you may have noticed, I have been adding a section called "Other Trek connections" to some performers articles when necessary. This is a better title for the section thar just "Additional works", as that could invite people to pile up an entire list of films and TV works that have nothing to do with Trek. Anyways, does anybody else have any thoughts or comments on this compromise? Sure, the lists might get a little long, but at least the information will be there for those who want it while not actually being clumped into the main narrative. Personally, I think it's working out fine... so far, anyway. :P --From Andoria with Love 05:02, 11 Dec 2005 (UTC) Riddler death coincidence I have removed the following note: :Gorshin's passing came just four days before the first appearance of The Riddler (voiced by horror movie icon ) on the animated series ''The Batman, on which Gorshin himself played the role of Hugo Strange.'' This really isn't of relevance to the actor. Yes, he did voice The Riddler on the earlier Batman series, but I don't think noting a non-Trek-related coincidence like this is really necessary. --From Andoria with Love 21:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)